One of my friends told me about this Czech TV program called ‘Ctyri v New Yorku’ (Four in New York), which is a heart-felt documentary about 4 Czech women who have immigrated to the USA later in their life and how hard it was for them to get adjusted to a completely different way of life.
I have had a chance to watch only the first 2 women (both are involved in art) and both films are phenomenal. You won’t be able to stop watching it! The only downside is that the movies load really slow so there are long breaks where you just wait for the movie to start playing again 🙁
The movies are in Czech – sorry! BUT I did translate some of the sentences which resonated with me:
CZ: Jedna ma kamaradka mi doporucila VYBORNY dokument ceske televize, zvany Ctyri v New Yorku. Urcite se na nej podivejte a pripravte se, ze to s vami citove zamava.
First lady: MONIKA ABBOTT…..(emigrated to the USA at the age of 38)
‘I have to be connected with the Czech Republic, I cannot live without it. Only abroad I realized that I was (a true) Czech.’
‘Musim byt napojena na Cechy, bez toho nemuzu zit, teprve v Holandsku jsem si uvedomila, ze jsem Ceska.’
“USA was my second country I immigrated to. At first, I felt like on a different planet. I have always lived in major cities and I did not know what suburbs are about. They look great, but they are sterile, nothing is going on there, everyone is dressed the same….But I had a negative attitude toward America at first, so it was also my fault I was so miserable and that I had no friends at that time.’
‘Druha emigrace, Amerika – tam jsem si prisla jak na na Marsu, vzdycky jsem zila jenom v hlavnich mestech a na suburbs (predmesti) jsem nebyla zvykla: vypada to idealne, ale je to sterilni, nic se tam nedeje, kazdej se oblika stejne…Ale v te dobe jsem mela negativni postoj vuci Americe, takze to byla taky ma chyba (ze se mi tam nelibilo, a ze jsem nemohla najit kamarady).’
‘Emigration is terribly hard; one does not realize that it is forever. What one experiences in his new homeland is something that cannot be explained to other people. One becomes a foreigner everywhere, like he is floating in nothingness and it’s forever.’
‘Emigrace je strasne tezka, clovek si neuvedomi, ze je to navzdy. Co zakusi tam, je zkusenost doma temer nezdelitelna…Vsude zustane uz clovek cizincem, v podstate lita ve vzduchoprazdnu a je to navzdy.’
I am not unhappy anymore. Ironically, America made many of my life-long dreams come true. People are super nice here, they are amazing at the work place, incredibly positive, which is a complete opposite to Czechs. The Czechs will tell you from the beginning that whatever idea you came up with will not work and that it is plain stupid.
‘Uz nejsem nestastna, Amerika mi paradoxne splnila nekolik mych snu, lidi jsou tu hrozne hodny, v pracovnich vztazich jsou uzasny, hrozne pozitivni, ne jako Cesi, kteri rikaji od zacatku ze to (vas napad) nepujde, a ze je to blbost.
Second Lady: Charlotta Kotik (Great-great-grand-daughter of T.G. Masaryk )
‘The Declaration of Independence talks about ‘the pursuit of happiness’ which means that people have the right to be happy and Americans are not embarrassed to tell you what they want to do and what they don’t want to do.
‘ Declaration of Independence mluvi o tzv. ‘pursuit of happiness”, kde lide maji pravo na to byt stastni, a nestydi se rict, ze je bavi delat tohle a nechteji delat toto.”
Although I have many American aquaintances, the core of myself will be always shaken because I left my family and my childhood friends.
Presto ze mam spoustu znamych, ale ten zaklad (pratele, rodina z detstvi) je emigraci vzdycky otresen.
I would say, if a person does not need to leave the country then he should not leave.
‘Rekla bych, ze kdyby clovek nemusel odejit ze sve zeme, tak by nemel’
Source:
http://www.ceskatelevize.cz/ivysilani/1068832820-ctyri-z-new-yorku/202323232750004/
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Emigrace je tak tezka , jak si ji clovek udela. Emigrace neni zadna tragedie, naopak nam umozni si rozsirit obzory, uvedomit si, odkud prichazime, umozni nam se stydet za urcite nase narodni rysy a umozni nam byt hrdy na urcite vlastnostni naseho naroda. Odejit z vlasti a byt 30 – 40 let nestastny a porad byt spojeny s vlasti jako novorozene pupecni snurou se svoji matkou, to mi pripada, jako ze to novorozene neni schopne se stat dospelym. Vim, ze hodne Cechu a Slovaku se v USA “uchytili” a neco v zivote dokazali. S velkou pravdepodobnosti by ve sve milovane vlasti nebyli tam, kde jsou ted v USA. Me take samozrejme zajima deni v Cesku, rad se tam vracim, ale je to takovy pocit, jaky jsem mel, kdyz jsem jako dite jezdil k babicce… Prijel jsem vzdy do jineho sveta, kde kazdou hodinu cinkaly pendlovky a musel jsem zavirat vratka, aby neutekli slepice….
Mam vyhodu toho, ze jsem zil v 7 zemich, a Cesko je jednim z nich. V kazde zemi je neco hezkeho a oskliveho a Cesko neni zadnou vyjimkou…
Souhlasim s Vlastimilem. Je to opravdu tak, jak si to clovek udela. Nema cenu se trapit. Kdyz to mam v emigraci tezke, tak se vratim! A nebo ne a buduju zivot tak, jak bych ho budovala i tak, ale za treba jinych podminek. Do CR se moc rada vracim, mam tam celou rodinu, ti jedini mi chybi, ale jsem s nim v kazdodennim kontaktu pres internet a mozna vic, nez kdybych zila tam. Nasla jsem si tu spoustu kamaradu, vic nez jsem mivala v CR a praci bych tam takovou take nenasla. Je fakt, ze hodne lidi ma ze zacatku obdobi vzdoru, tak jak prozivala jedna z tech zen, ze se ji proste nic nelibilo a nezdalo, ja na tom byla trosinku podobne, ale chce to neresit, co je jine a nehledat to stejne co doma, byt flexibilni a pozitivni. Casto je poznat, kdyz se nekdo pristehuje a neni tu jeste dlouho, ze ma takoveto “v Cesku je vsechno lepsi”…zajimave ze lide, co uz tu ziji dele tohle vubec neresi… Jeste bych se vratila k tomu “floating in nothingness as a foreigner”…na takove blbosti jsou nejlepsi antidepresiva nebo poradny drink! 🙂
I cannot comment on the movies since I have not seen them. However, I do resonate with the expressed statements here. Having been an immigrant twice, I have noticed a wide range of reasons for doing so as well as feelings that accompany it. Initially there is a reason for immigration, usually an economic one but it can be almost anything else. As one goes through the process there is an initial curosity entering into another country and its possibilities. The next stage is one of comparision where one looks back and misses certain things, usually family and friends they are familiar with. The third stage is accommodation, making the best of where one lives; making new friends, exploring possibilies. The final stage is one of acceptance (not necessarily of everything) but accepting the situation and moving towards more positive thinking and feelings of where one lives. Because of the process involved, some people move through these stages quickly, others take much more time. In my case it was a very slow process because of my emotional ties to “home.” I lived in the U.S. for almost 15 years before applying for citizenship which is the last stage in the process. This summer when I was visiting Czech, I was asked by someone “which country I considered at home with since I’ve lived in a Czech community, Canadian and U.S.” Without thinking to much about it, my answer was Candian because I lived there most of my life. The length of time one spends in a place usually has the greatest impact on anyones life.
I think I would feel at home everywhere except Africa…….Simply not my style… It is being said that we all people originate in Africa, so there is no reason to go back , i really don’t miss it :))
and so it is…
Vlastimile, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said “it’s not like coming back to your grandma’s backyard’ :)) It’s true, a lot of us have these pink glasses on, remembering only the good things, and then we go back and it’s totally different. I haven’t been back for 5 years so it will be interesting to see how I feel when I finally go back again. In my case though there is also a lot of family drama that’s involved which makes everything harder.
Evi, yes a lot of Czechs have that attitude! “Everything is better in Czech”, but then they should move back, right? It must be harder to get used to the new country if both wife and husband are Czech. You really have to be proactive to get out there and make non-Czech (!!) friends.
Mel, those stages remind me of some AA meeting: first it’s a denial that you are an immigrant and you have to start your life over here, then you have to admit that you in fact are one, …..learning ‘to live a new life with a new code of behavior’ (taken from AA website:) and finally ‘helping others who suffer from the same compusions’ :))
Overall though, the documentary is kind of a downer, although I have not seen the last two ladies.
… I came to Canada when I was 14 with my parents and brother. This was not my choice or decision. I’ve now lived here for 26 years, I do not live in a ‘czech community’ and have almost no czech friends and have so completely adapted to the Canadian way of life sometimes I forget I wasn’t born here. Sometimes. I do not believe everything is better in Czech and remember a time when things were absolutely substandard. But I miss my home. And I like your process Mel, it certainly seems that way to me. But I cannot say although I am fully adapted, that I do not have issues about all this and sometimes feel like I belong nowhere. The two cultures are so different and my knowledge of them both is so easy and thorough (for example I think and dream in both languages without necessarily knowing it and often speakk in the wrong language to a person without realizing it) that I find it confusing. I will never give up being Czech, and will love all things Czech, but I feel same way about Canada.
But when I go back home I do feel like a foreinger and sometimes am treated like on, or worse, like a traitor that left when things were at its worst. And high school here (in Canada) as an immigrant was a nightmare and very often I felt like a foreigner and sometimes I still have residual feelings. And a stiff drink did often help that.
But this may be that I was a child and came at a very different time and it is certainly interesting to read or see( did not watch the movies yet) about the experiences of my countryman who are free to immigrate wherever and whenever.
And I agree that if you don’t like the country you live in, the country that took you in, and think everything is better in Czech, you should go home, if you have that choice.
Just really quick, for those interested in ‘aa steps’ of emigration, you should read another article that I posted, it’s called “What does immigration do to our souls?” It is an exempt from one student’s master thesis on this particular topic:
http://czechmatediary.com/2009/08/29/what-does-emigration-do-to-our-souls/
I will comment more later when I have a bit more time 🙂
Skvely clanek, Tani, diky za link! Vidim, ze ten vzbudil opravdu hodne ohlasu! Jen jsem rychlostne prejela komentare a Vlastimil tam radil, at se Jana moc nestyka s Cechy aspon ze zacatku. Ja bych s tim moc nesouhlasila. Ja se s Cechy nestykala take prvnich asi 5 let a myslim, ze mi to neprineslo nic pozitivniho, spis jsem prisla o leta, ktere jsem si mohla uzit lip ve spolecnosti fajn lidi…takhle jsem mela pratel jen velmi malo….kde je potkat, kdyz clovek nechodi do kostela, nema deti do skolky ci skoly, pracuje pro firmu z jineho statu…clovek nema jak navazat kontakty, protoze s lidmi z okoli nema nic spolecneho… s Cechy mam aspon spolecny jazyk a puvod. Podle mne i Cesi zijici zde ti pomuzou ve zvyknuti si na novou zem a kulturu, kolikrat take vidis, jak ziji oni a ja vse zvladaji, je to inspirativni. Ale to jen tak na okraj 🙂
Dik, Evi. Je fakt, ze ja jsem se s Cechy taky tech prvnich pet let nestykala, proste jsem zadny nemohla najit (to je take jeden z duvodu, proc jsem zalozila tenhle blog) a myslim, ze me to primelo nejake ty kamarady – domorodce – najit a poradne se naucit anglicky. Prusvih byl ale v tom, ze jsem skoro uplne zapomnela mluvit cesky!!!! Mimochodem obdivuji ty pani v tom filmu, jakou maji hezky zachovanou cestinu. Asi proto, ze jsou jeste pupecne privazane k Cecham, jak rika Vlastimil 😉
Jeste jsem chtela neco podotknout k Melove komentu (doufam, ze tom rozumis Mele, jinak bych to jeste prelozila do anglictiny). Podle tveho nazoru se clovek citi doma, kde zije nejdele. Neco v tom je, ale ja si porad myslim, ze kde clovek vyroste (tedy kde stravi sve detstvi a brzke mladi…panecku, ja znim jako nejakej starocech!), tak to misto na nem zanecha ty nejhlubsi stopy. Tady tomu rikaji ‘formative years’, tedy vam to okoli, kde vyrustate, formuje jakousi osobnost. Samozrejme, ze rodina vasi osobnost formuje nejvice, ale myslim si, ze ten ‘zbytek’ (kamaradi, sousedi, ucitele..atd) v tom taky hraji velkou roli. Tudiz si myslim, ze kdyz nejko emigruje a uplne se od Cech odrizne (zapomene jazyk, nenavstevuje Cechy, nedodrzuje zadne zvyky – par takovych lidi jsem poznala), tak na to jeho podvedomi doplati a tenhle ‘stres’ vystrci ruzky nekde jinde. Nebo proste polopaticky, tato osoba nemuze dosahnout v zivote naprostou spokojenost a pocit miru.
Ted jsem ale odbehla od Melova komentu. Myslim si, ze i kdybych tu zila treba 30 let, porad bych si tu neprisla na 100% doma. Ted bych rekla, ze se tu citim tak na 85% doma, ale tech 15% sestava z mych ceskych kamaradu, rodiny, navstev (nebo alespon planovani) do Cech, ale hlavne to, ze se s Hanickou muzu bavit Cesky a vypravet ji o mem detsvi/mladi o Ceske Republice atd.
Ono prestehovani z jednoho mista na druhe je vzdy velka psychicka zatez. Staci se prestehovat z Prahy treba do Liberce a clovek se bude citit jako ryba ve vode a vsichni se mu budou zdat “divni” a “puvodni” obyvatele Liberce se na Prazaka budou divat jako na vetrelce. Stesk po “domove” prvnich 5 let bude obrovsky a vsechno se bude zdat cizi, i ten jazyk se bude zdat jakysi divny, ne takovy zpevavy jako v Praze 🙂
Where ever you live make the best out of it:)
…and there always is other side of the fence where the grass is greener :)) ( in case you don’y like it in your current place)
Tanja, diky za clanek a odkaz. Souhlasim ze o tom ze s tvorbou “totoznosti” maji nejvic co delat ty “formativni leta”. Jinak po 30 letech v USA ve “smisenem manzelstvi” s Americankou (mimochodem kdyz reknu ze ziji v “mixed marriage”, mnoheho domorodce to tu drobet znervozni… 🙂 – rekl bych ze muj pomer kde se citim doma, USA vs. CR je tak 80/20. Nemuzu ale vyloucit ze by se zmenil diky okolnostem – zit v CR si predstavit dokazu, moje zena by rekla “it depends..”
Mnoho zdaru v blogovani!
No, Martine, mixed marriage zni trosku Mormonsky nebo neco takoveho ;))
A myslis, ze ten tvuj pomer – 80/20 – se s vekem zmeni? Myslis, ze treba v tvych 70-ti letech to bude 90/10 nebo to bude stejne? Nebo naopak, clovek asi zesenilni a pomer 80/20 se zmeni na 20/80 ?? :))) (= senilni clovek si zacne myslet, ze je zase v Cechach a lide ho budou muset upominat ze neni, a at mluvi anglicky, protze mu tady v Americe nikdo nerozumi).
Vlastimile, no ale v tom Liberci mu to ulehci ten cesky negativismus, ktery mu bude pripominat domov, takze ten presun az zas tak strasny nebude 😉
Jo, a taky to, ze si bude moct na rohu v samoobsluze koupit Tatrankky 🙂
Mixed marriage… Too funny! V tom případě většina z nás žije ve smíšeném manželství! Já jsem pořád zatím 100% Češka, ale možná že osm let je ještě málo.
Vlastimile, Táni, mně by stačilo přestěhovat se z Brna do Prahy a už bych se cítila jako cizinec!
Co myslíte? Mám pravdu nebo ne?
Před několika lety jsem začal tušit, že motivace se liší mezi českými opérkami v Americe podle věku.
Když je jí 18-24 let, chce cestovat a učit se anglicky. Někdy jde o nedostek kariérových možností na její české vesnici nebo o to, že smí v Americe studovat, a v Čechách nesmí.
Když je jí 27 let nebo víc, už má v Čechách práci nebo třeba plnou kariéru, říká, že přijela jako opérka, aby se učila anglicky, ale skutečně jde o to, že žena starší než 25 let snadněji najde manžel v Americe než v Čechách.
Pár žen z Čech, z Kolombie a z Činy mi to už upřimně řekly, ale myslím, že situace je častějši než si lidé myslí.
I would like someone to make films like that about Polish women who immigrate to the US in their late 20s or early 30s. I get them in my classes all the time, and they usually complain constantly that they hate the US, they wish they’d never left Poland, etc. “I had EVERYTHING in Poland! My career, my house, my dog, my car… What am I doing HERE?” Typically, at some point, they’ll tell me happily that they’re going back to Poland for a few months, and they rub their hatred for the US in my face some more. They leave for the summer, come back in the fall, and suddenly they’re not complaining about the US anymore. I’ve seen this happen a number of times.
@Jamie, kdo nesmi v Cesku studovat?
I have seen many Czechs too, complaining about USA and showing their hate towards USA.
Mostly they are illegals and while I understand, it is not exactly easy for them, they simply blame every misfortune on the country where they wanted to get rich but it never happened.
I lived in other countries as well and the life was not exactly easy there, so I simply left. But I did not complain about the host country.
BTW, there are several thousands of Americans living in Czech republic, and guess what, many of them are complaining too. Yes, for some nuts the emigration is hard :))
Nesmí studovat ta, která vypadla ze systemu, hlavně protože neumí uspěšit v přijimací zkoušce českého typu. Český systém vyplivuje hodně lidí geniální inteligence, kteří potom dělají v recepci v hotelech nebo tak. Přijedou k nám, kde mají univerzity jiný způsob přijímat studenty a vysoké školy jim pomahají s jejich slabinami, a konečně dostávají profesionální diplóm. The Czech Republic’s loss is our gain.
Jamie, v Česku je spousta škol, které berou bez přijímaček, pak už jen musíš dokázat, že jsi schopen se něco naučit. V USA když zaplatíš, tak můžeš studovat témeř kdekoli a diplom dostaneš, protože te škola protlačí. Prostě placená služba. Jak říkáš, systém je jiný. Ale věř mi, těch odchazejicích “geniu” je málo, vetšinou je to jen útěk od nudy a vidina rychlého zbohatnutí.
Nesouhlasím, Evo. Typická univerzita v Americe ne přijímá kohokoliv, kdo platí, a není u nás jisté, že kdo platí dostane diplom.
Jeden z mých prvních dojmů v Čechách byl, že české univerzity zřejmě odmitají spoustu lidí, kteří jsou jasně inteligentnější než mnoho, kteří jsou příjatí a dostanou diplom. Proto myslím, že podceňuješ počet geniů, kteří v Čechách pracují v recepci a počet blbců, kteří mají český diplom.
Platí tady to, co napsala jedna Ruska v mé třídě: “The Russian system does a very good job of educating a small elite to a very high level, but in America anyone who wants to can get more education than he can in Russia.”
A proč je to horší mít vidinu rychlého zbohatnutí než sedět v Čechách na vesnici a řvát ze zavistí a samolibostí proti všem sousedům?
Jamie, copak, jsi ten genialni recepcni z vesnice? Nebo nekdo z rodiny? Ja bohuzel zadne takove nedocenene genie neznam. Podle me, vsechno jde, kdyz se chce a myslim, ze hodne velmi inteligentnich lidi treba nechce…nesnazi se…je to pod jejich uroven se naucit na testy a projit tim systemem a hlavne to jsou pak takove ty reci o systemu – vymluvy. Nerikam, ze vsichni samozrejme, ale znam par takovych take. Ano i spousta blbcu ma cesky diplom, ale ti blbci se aspon snazili, ucili se, museli splnit podminky a prosli a podle me toho dokazali vic, nez takovi ti radoby geniove, kteri radsi vse vzdaji a pak pracuji nekde na recepci a stezuji si. Ano v Americe je pro ne mozna vystudovat lehci, pozaduje se po nich min a nebo se vic snazi, protoze nechteji vyhazovat penize za nic. Co se deje v ruskem skolstvi to nevim, ale ceske znam z vlastni zkusenosti.
Nerikam, ze je neco spatneho odejit za rychlym zbohatnutim, ale casto k tomu vedou iluze, ze v Americe letaji peceni holubi do pusy a pak kdyz neletaji, tak je clovek strasne prekvapeny a stezuje si…presne tak, jak v tom clanku/filmu.
Souhlasim s Evou. Ja jsem teda jeste zadneho geniala za kasou v Cechach taky jeste nepotkala. To se spis stava tady v Americe. Potkala jsem hodne Americanu, kteri jsou velmi chytri (book-smart a street-smart) a na vysokou nikdy nesli, protoze se jim nechtelo. Proste delaji neco jineho, bud hudbu, nebo maji svuj byznys apod.
Tanja and Eva, if you had been teaching high school students and then seen where they ended up, you wouldn’t be able to escape the conclusion that the Czech educational system spits out some of its brightest people, who then end up in menial jobs. I had a few obvious geniuses who didn’t pass any entrance exam but the one at a cheesy tourism school, so the smartest girl in the class ends up working the desk at the Marriott, while the foolish drunk gets into university.
I even once had a very arrogant Slovak engineer tell me that, “Of course, geniuses don’t get into university, and they shouldn’t, because their intelligence is not balanced!”
I think you just view these people in light of the jobs they have and make assumptions about their intelligence, but if you observe them day by day for years on the run-up to the university entrance exams, it would be so obvious that the Czech educational system ejects many of the smartest people. This is common to most European and Middle Eastern educational systems, because they are based on throwing people out at various points in their lives, rather than pushing them upward. (And can you start university in the Czech Republic at age 40? How about 50?)
Saying that they don’t throw out highly intelligent people would leave the mystery of why the Czech educational system’s rejects do so well at university in the US and Canada, all the way up through grad school.
Jamie, and how did you know that these kids were obvious geniuses? IQ test? Your own observation based on? I am sure there are many geniuses that were rejected by American universities as well or just could not study for financial reasons…at least the universities in Czech are free even though harder to get through for some. That girl you were talking about. What happened to her? Did she go to Harvard? Is she now a top scientist? Or is she still at the reception desk? Maybe you don’t know enough about her to know the real truth why she failed at the tests. Anyway, just wondering. In any case, I am not one to blame “the system”. That is too easy.
To me the mystery is easily solved, have you ever thought that maybe the rejects do well in the US and Canada because the universities are easier to enter and easier to go through? I’ve heard that from a lot from people that could compare (as well as in my own experience). I am sure that is also different based on the kind of school you go to, perhaps Harvard is harder than local state or community college… Same if you apply to Karlova Universita you may be rejected while successfully getting into and completing university in Olomouc…
Also I think you can start university in Czech any time you want, even when you are 40 or 50. I don’t think there are age restrictions.
@Jamie, I happen to work with very intelligent people. Vast majority of them have received their education in other countries. I have a very hard time to find all those people with diplomas from US “prestigious” universities at my workplace… I have been and still am working in software development covering pharmaceutical industry (many people are coming from China and India), Wall Street (many coming from Russia and India) and mobile devices industry (many coming from France, UK, Sweden, Poland etc).
That’s why I never learn proper English. There are simply not many native Americans working on this type of jobs 🙂
Jamie, how do you define the word ‘genius’ in your words? Did these people get straight A’s at your class at all times? Then I wonder why they did not pass the university exams. If your definition of ‘genius’ includes also being street-smart then I kind of see your point. The university entrance exams (the ones that let you in or not) are strictly memorization based. There is not much logic involved in them – wouldn’t you agree Evi? I passed the exams to the university of Economics in Prague but I studied like crazy. Then I left for the US so I never experienced the Czech university classes so I cannot tell you how hard they are but I have heard the same thing from other people – they are extremely hard (esp. when compared to the regular US university).
PS: Evi, the I am pretty sure the universities accept people who are 24 years of age or younger. After that you have to pay a tuition 🙁 That’s what I love about this country – you can be a student until you are on your death bed! I graduated with a guy who was 81 years old :)))
Tani, ano to je mozne. Sice musis platit, ale vezmou te. V USA musis platit v jakemkoli veku, i kdyz je ti 18, ze ano. Rikas, 81 lety deda, jo? Tak to je dobry! Ale kdyz byl sikovny, tak proc ne! 🙂